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A lot of fans Booing the knee tonight

Anyone else think the FA need to drop this gesture for the Euros.

It’s starting to get a bit embarrassing.

Your own team being booed before kick is surely not the way to start a game

109 Replies

  • Garford Beck

    In reply to Peter John-Baptiste:

    In no way is my response patronising, Peter, do you know what the word actually means? I've asked Doug a fair question and he keeps dodging it, so how in what way is my response patronising?
  • Doug Fenner

    In reply to Garford Beck:

    No Garford, I'm not sure I can come up with a way those fans who want to to verbalise some form of objection for their view that the players are actually supporting a marxist organisation when taking part in what they say is a straightforward demonstration of their opposition to racism and other forms of inequality.
    But then that may be because I see no need for any form of protest in the first place and, I'm afraid to say, that it's also because I believe a proportion of the people booing aren't doing it to oppose marxism but for another, bleaker reason. Booing is a sign of disapproval I agree, and I don't think I've said anything different, but the problem with it is that it doesn't make it clear what you're disapproving of.

    As for the other stuff...

    I'm not anti-democratic and I don't believe anything I've posted here is remotely anti-democratic. I have expressed my opinion that booing is wrong. What other people decide to do is up to them. I don't sing 'No Surrender' during the national anthem - again my choice and no affecting anyone else. I also wouldn't boo James Maclean for not wearing a poppy on his shirt, agai nmy choice.

    I'd also challenge your view that being anti-democratic is a province of the left. There are many victims of right wing regimes that would challenge you on that as well, but that's not a discussion for here and, frankly, neither is my views on BLM protest marches.
  • Peter John-Baptiste

    In reply to Garford Beck:

    'you seem to have little grasp of history on this subject.'

    ' Even a cursory check would tell you that Martin Luther King Jr. was pictured taking the knee as far back as 1965. You must have heard of the phrase, 'a little knowledge is a dangerous thing', '

    'Malawi (you probably don't know where that is,'



    hmmm - fairly patronising comments I think :-)
  • Peter John-Baptiste

    In reply to Doug Fenner:

    'I'd also challenge your view that being anti-democratic is a province of the left. There are many victims of right wing regimes that would challenge you on that as well,'

    Capitol invading Trump supporters say hello! :-)
  • Peter John-Baptiste

    In reply to Garford Beck:

    'do you know what the word actually means? '


    Here we go again. :-)
  • Garford Beck

    In reply to Doug Fenner:

    Doug, it's not that you're posting anything overtly anti-democratic on here, but you leave yourself open to the accusation that you are anti-democratic because you still haven't categorically and unambiguously stated whether England fans have the democratic right to voice their opposition, as they see fit, but peacefully, against Southgate and the players for taking the knee. I believe they are booing, not for anything more sinister than that; to get the players to stop this virtue signalling. Fans are sick and tired of having their game hijacked by a gesture heavily linked to a Marxist organisation whose aims are anti-democratic and have nothing to do with eradicating racial and social injustice. You've even said it's gone on for you long, yourself. That doesn't mean the fans are racist. You've stated that, in your opinion, booing is wrong, but you don't tell us why. I never said that being anti-democratic was the sole preserve of the left and I agree with your comment on that. It's strange that your quite happy to give your opinion on a variety of matters during this discussion but you go press the mute button on whether or not you support the protest marches of the Marxist organisation so widely despised in this country. Can I ask you one question, Doug, please, do you consider yourself to be patriotic?
  • Garford Beck

    In reply to Peter John-Baptiste:

    If you think that my response was in anyway patronising, it's obvious you don't know what it means. You come on hear trying to look cool, Peter, and you end up looking silly. But I tell you what, let's put it out to the wider audience and see if they think what I sent Doug meets the definition of being patronising. This is what I penned to Doug, ladies and gentlemen: 'No, you’re avoiding the question, Doug, it isn’t about you not supporting the booing, you’ve made that clear. I’m asking you whether you think the fans have the right to voice their opposition. That’s a very clear distinction and you keep avoiding answering the question.' Bear in mind the Oxford Dictionary definition of patronising reads, as follows: 'treat in a way that is apparently kind or helpful but that betrays a feeling of superiority.' In no way, does my response meet that threshold, your replies to me on the other hand, Peter...

  • Garford Beck

    In reply to Peter John-Baptiste:

    As I said to Doug, I never said it was the sole preserve of the left.
  • Peter John-Baptiste

    In reply to Garford Beck:

    Trying to look cool.

    :-))))

    I don't need to try.

    You're right, I don't know what it means. I've never read a book.

    Anyway, I wasn't referring to the little piece you wrote above as well you know.
  • Doug Fenner

    In reply to Garford Beck:

    Garford, let me perfectly clear. Fans have a right to boo. At no point have I said they haven't. All along I have said I don't agree with it. I don't agree with it because, unlike yourself it seems, I don't believe the players are showing their support for a marxist organisation.

    I believe you, and the fans that boo and who are doing so because of the BLM organisation, are conflating two different things. There is Black Lives Matter, the movement which is a blanket term for many organisations campaigning against racism - some of them less savory than others. Amongst those is the Black Lives Matter Global Network, which is the one people are getting agitated about, who are a tiny part of the whole.

    I support the ambition of the movement - for greater equality and for an end to racism - but that doesn't mean I support the specific organisation or it's aims or those that use these protests to cause damage and chaos.

    So TL:DR Boo if you want to - I will continue to think that you are wrong regardless of the motivation.

    As for your final comment - I'm sorry but that is a bit bizarre. I have no idea what my idea of patriotism has got to do with any of this.
  • Alan Sutton

    In reply to Peter John-Baptiste:

    If you believe in Freedom of Speech, then unfortunately you have to allow people who disagree with you to have their say and that means that both sides are right.

    Personally I think the knee bending is virtue-signalling nonsense, and for all the reasons Garford has written. It is just saying "Look at me, look at me look how anti-racist I am". and does nothing concrete to address the problems faced by people who are disadvantaged by racism.However if the players really want to do that, then it is their choice, and they are quite free to do it if they want to. On the other hand, those who disagree with a gesture asscoiated with a neo-Marxist quasi anarchist group are entitled to boo and it was bleedin' obvious this was going to happen the moment fans were allowed back in.

    I had no problem with Kick it out and the Red Card campaign, even if it does get a bit tiring being continually told what I am supposed to think. I would be quite happy - and I expect most boo-ers would be too - to applaud an alternative gesture such as linking arms round the centre circle or whatever. I would applaud even more if those players, rather than genuflecting, gave practical support to the disadvantaged, as I think Marcus Rashford has been doing.
  • Paul Dennett

    In reply to Alan Sutton:

    If bending the knee is taken on face value as an anti-racism display and is deemed "virtue signalling" - you could use that against any number of visible displays towards a particular good cause - minutes silences, cancer ribbons, poppies, MIND logos on the back of FL shirts (all good causes - no criticism of these here). It's something to raise awareness and if you take the players and managers word for it then they are doing it as an anti-racism display; I doubt the team are all reading Das Kapital on the team bus. I think the knee is generally seen by most of the general public as an anti-racism gesture rather than the endorsement of any extreme left-wing groups, so the optics of England fans booing it on TV is pretty grim.

    Just my 2 cents from a lurker.
  • Garford Beck

    In reply to Peter John-Baptiste:

    I didn't actually know that, Peter, as you joined the conversation late on and didn't specify what you were referring to. None of what I've written has been patronising (and, again, I'm happy to leave my posts open to scrutiny and/or comment by the wider audience), save the geography lesson for which I apologised. Nothing else has been patronising. Maybe you don't like some of the things I've written but I think if you were to conduct a straw poll amongst the membership, more would agree with my comments than would not. As for your coolness, er, yeah, well, we both remember your coolness at a Ska night at Wealdstone FC. I'll spare your blushes but Sheren's still having nightmares at your clumsy, how should I put this, attempts to charm her!
  • Anthony Mason

    In reply to Garford Beck:

    My tuppence-worth, One thing that rarely raises a mention is the behaviour of England fans in Bulgaria which probably was a fairer reflection of people these days in England who are tired of racism blighting our sport and that we really just want to get on with watching the game. I'd suggest that the showing of the England fans at the Bulgaria match on the screen for a couple of minutes before a game would have far greater impact than millionaires kneeling. A show of ordinary people supporting black players should generate a lot of positive coverage and also show our players that we are with them.
  • Garford Beck

    In reply to Paul Dennett:

    Hi Paul,
    Yes, possibly one of Karl Marx's finest tomes, I'm sure. Your comparisons don't really stack up because none of them are political, they're either acts of national remembrance or good causes. It's like I say, they don't know what they're doing or why they're doing it. I think you'll find that most of the population see taking the knee as supportive of the neo-marxist quasi anarchist group, being referenced, here, with thanks to Alan Sutton for the wonderful description, and nothing at all to do with an anti-racism gesture. The act of taking the knee is offensive in itself. You say the optics of England fans booing it on TV is pretty grim, it's not as grim as seeing ill-informed footballers and their manager taking the knee. The taking of the knee only ever needed to be done once for it to be effective. Doing it now has absolutely no impact. It's becoming boring to be honest. People have had enough of it and it needs to stop.
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